Originally posted by no1marauderThe OT wasn't a waste--it all pointed to the cross and Christ. The 10 Commandments are excellent laws to live by, and Christ didn't come to destroy the law, but to fulfill it.
They do? You have to wonder why OT God wasted so much verbiage on the Ten Commandments and Mosaic Law then.
Originally posted by PinkFloydYou'd think an infinite being would be able to do it right the first time without having to torture his firstborn or make his dependents wait for several thousand years.
The OT wasn't a waste--it all pointed to the cross and Christ. The 10 Commandments are excellent laws to live by, and Christ didn't come to destroy the law, but to fulfill it.
When you find out I've boned your wife, don't come crying to RHP. "Thou shalt not bone thy rhp-neighbor's wife" is no longer in force. Jesus said I could.
Wait, how did the old testament law encourage murder anyway? One of the commandments is pretty clear: "You shall not murder." Yes, some of God's laws in the old testament were punishable by death, but this is not considered murder; it's capital punishment.
And as for the OT law no longer applying, I can see where PinkFloyd is coming from, but I would view their explanation as either a misunderstanding or miscommunication. The OT law still applies to us, even as Christians. Sin is sin; breaking God's commandment is breaking God's commandment, now or before Christ. The difference is this: so many of the laws of the OT were about what to do if a sin is committed. The entire temple sacrificial system was set up to make a way for people's sins to be forgiven. Now that the ultimate sacrifice has been paid once and for all, we are no longer required to make those temple sacrifices, and so most of the Levitical Law has become unnecessary for us. But still, what God said was wrong then is still wrong now.
He didn't get it wrong the first time, He simply wanted to make an easier way for all to come to Him. It's true that Jesus narrowed them down to "Love the Lord your God" and "love your neighbor as yourself", but those are not meant to replace the law, but to encompass them all; the law gives us a good definition of what that love is.
Originally posted by JirakonBut is what God said was right then still right now? Is capital punishment for adultery still OK? What about for working on the Sabbath? Do you work on the Sabbath? It was wrong then so must still be wrong now.
Yes, some of God's laws in the old testament were punishable by death, but this is not considered murder; it's capital punishment.
....
Now that the ultimate sacrifice has been paid once and for all, we are no longer required to make those temple sacrifices, and so most of the Levitical Law has become unnecessary for us. But still, what God said was wrong then is still wrong now.
It's interesting that you should specifically choose capital punishment for adultery and working on the Sabbath, as both of these have specific examples in the gospels. As to captial punishment for adultery:
In John 8:1-11, (if you want to read it yourself, here it is)
http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=John%208&version=50
Jesus deals with this very topic. In fact, the Pharisees asked Him the very same question. In effect, they asked if captial punishment for adultery, as Moses commanded, still applied. Now Jesus never claimed that she didn't commit a sin by committing adultery (this would have been contradicting the law). But He, knowing that He would eventually bear the punishment of all sins (past, present, and future), was able to say, "Neither do I condemn you", that is, "I will bear your condemnation for you." This is why "the Son of Man has power on earth to forgive sins" (Mark 2:10). Also, the original law stated that no one could be put to death without witnesses. Jesus pointed out to the Pharisees in this passage that they were not qualified witnesses, as they themselves were also guilty of the law. This conviction caused every single one of them to leave, and not stone her.
As to working on the Sabbath:
In Mark 2:23-28, (same chapter as the healing of the paralytic referenced in the previous section)
http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Mark%202;&version=50;
When the Pharisees tried to condemn Jesus' disciples for "working" on the sabbath, He let them know that the sabbath was not meant to be a burden on man. "The Sabbath was made for man, and not man for the Sabbath." God instituted a Sabbath day in order that man could rest from his work, not so he could be burdened with a list of things he could and couldn't do, or of a specific time for it to start and a time for it to end. Under the new covenant, the sabbath is simply a time for people to not be distracted by the affairs of their work, and spend time with God ("keep it holy" ). If one chooses to do this on the 7th day of the week, that is up to them.
Paul (as well as the author of Hebrews) made it much clearer. Galatians 3:19 and Hebrews 9:10 both show that the old covenant was only to be kept until the Messaiah came. After this, since He fulfulled the law and bore our punishment, a new covenant was made, a covenant of love between man and God, and between man and his fellow man. The rest of Galatians 3 and Hebrews 9 give a better understanding of the function and reason for the law of the old covenant. It cannot be considered obsolete, as it does have a purpose, but it is no longer necessary for the entirety of it to be kept.
http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=galatians%203;&version=50;
http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=hebrews%209;&version=50;
Originally posted by JirakonPaul didn't think he could sell to potential converts that they would have to follow Mosaic Law, so he came up with a convoluted rationale to discard it. Oddly, Jesus never stated anything about a new covenant that would mean the end of the obligation to follow Mosaic Law including circumcision and dietary laws (which Jesus himself complied with).
It's interesting that you should specifically choose capital punishment for adultery and working on the Sabbath, as both of these have specific examples in the gospels. As to captial punishment for adultery:
In John 8:1-11, (if you want to read it yourself, here it is)
http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=John%208&version=50
Jesus deals with ...[text shortened]... sion=50;
http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=hebrews%209;&version=50;
Originally posted by JirakonYou have carefully avoided answering the questions. I wonder if that is deliberate.
It cannot be considered obsolete, as it does have a purpose, but it is no longer necessary for the entirety of it to be kept.
The first question is not whether it is necessary to follow the law but whether it is OK to carry out the prescribed punishments.
The second question is addressing your claim "But still, what God said was wrong then is still wrong now." which you have now contradicted and admitted that some formerly wrong things are no-longer wrong.
Originally posted by Jirakon
(past, present, and future),
...of course that makes a mess of the rest of your argument.
Originally posted by Jirakon
He let them know that the sabbath was not meant to be a burden on man.
So the writers of the Old Testament got it all wrong and God omitted to correct it for hundreds of years causing untold numbers of unjust deaths?
Originally posted by AThousandYoungRegardless of all the gibberish posted on these sites, mine included---heck, mine ESPECIALLY), forgiving one's enemies and praying for their deliverance is at the heart of my Christian faith. I'll leave you with that encouraging note. Jesus loves you.
You'd think an infinite being would be able to do it right the first time without having to torture his firstborn or make his dependents wait for several thousand years.
When you find out I've boned your wife, don't come crying to RHP. "Thou shalt not bone thy rhp-neighbor's wife" is no longer in force. Jesus said I could.
Originally posted by PinkFloydAnd at the heart of 'forgiving' ones enemies is the implicit claim that ones enemy is 'wrong' and a refusal to admit ones own failings.
Regardless of all the gibberish posted on these sites, mine included---heck, mine ESPECIALLY), forgiving one's enemies and praying for their deliverance is at the heart of my Christian faith. I'll leave you with that encouraging note. Jesus loves you.
Originally posted by Bosse de NageYes your right, I got that one wrong.
So it would be your fault if I stabbed you in the face.
What I should have said is:
1. It is possible to have enemies that don't require your forgiveness as their offenses are justified.
2. Some times your enemies are your enemies because of your own failings not theirs, and as such you should be asking their forgiveness.
I forgive you for highlighting my error. 🙂